Episode 56 - Let's Kill Hitler
  • MrSimonWoodMrSimonWood September 2011
    This episode of the podcast was entertaining! I don't think I agreed with either of you on anything, but I hugely admired your conviction ;-)
  • EugeneEugene September 2011
    Wait till you hear episode 59, tentatively entitled, "Let's Kill The Time Line!"  or perhaps "Let's Kill Causality!"

    Actually, I read your review and I was fascinated by the fact that on first viewing, you obviously had some reservations, but on re-viewing you thought it was great.  (I believe I'm paraphrasing your review accurately, but do correct me if I'm wrong.)

    What magic spell does Moffat cast that gets people to ignore the gargantuan plot problems?  How does he do it and is the mind control somehow filtered out as the data streams from the UK, through Abu Dhabi and to the US? :-)
  • MrSimonWoodMrSimonWood September 2011
    Not quite a fair paraphrasing: it wasn't so much that on second viewing the bits that had irked me vanished, just that I felt I had overestimated their weight the first time round (and spent too much time thinking about them, and missing some more enjoyable bits). But you have the gist.

    I'm not aware of ignoring gargantuan plot-holes (it may be there are plot-holes I've just missed, of course, but I'm not consciously ignoring them). The things that bugged me were either explanations that were too sketchy or not to my taste, and generally tangential to the plot. The key for me is the balance between the central sweep of the story (which I think is very strong) and the little details that make up the texture and contribute much to my enjoyment when they are "right" (and in fairness, for the most-part, they were in this).

    I'm astonished and impressed that after that full-on episode-long assault on LKH you have the energy and stamina to mount a fresh diatribe, but I look forward to hearing it!
  • EugeneEugene September 2011
    It's really not so much as a second diatribe as a larger one aimed at the whole "tapestry" of the universe.  :-)

    Here's my question:  Do you ever do jigsaw puzzles?  Ever done one that someone else bought and gave you after they finished with it?

    I've done this.  I've built a complex, difficult, second-hand puzzle, and as I worked on it it got harder and harder.  Eventually I realized that they've mistakenly put the pieces of two puzzles in the box, and that both puzzles are similar enough to be confusing....  but until I got to that realization, I got increasing frustrated by the pieces that just didn't seem to fit.

    That's what's happening here in the River Song story.  The pieces just don't fit, and I need them to fit.  It's a crap puzzle (read: story) if the pieces don't fit in the end.

    If I want crap stories, I'll read L. Ron Hubbard.

    Now, once I've learned that the pieces don't fit I can come to terms with the mistake.  Obviously, the person giving me the puzzle made and honest mistake.  But what if it was a new puzzle, hand-crafted by some puzzle artisan who was an evil mastermind!

    Then I'd be mad, and that's how I'm increasingly feeling every time Moffat returns to this timey-wimey nonsense.  If he actually manages to put the pieces together he'll be a genius, otherwise, it's a colossal fail.
  • MrSimonWoodMrSimonWood September 2011
    Right. Let's see if I can take this jigsaw metaphor and stretch it so much that all the tabs get bent and soggy and the shiny side gets lots of those little wrinkles...

    First of all, it's not easy to tell that you've got a piece from the wrong puzzle. I'm certainly not convinced that's the case. Of the pieces we've got, some fit, and others don't - but that's because there are gaps still, the missing pieces that go in between.

    Secondly, when I'm doing a puzzle and there's a wrong/missing piece at the end, it is a niggle for me. There's something unsatisfying about it. But it doesn't ruin all the enjoyment I've had making the puzzle because it's not seeing the picture that makes me do a jigsaw, it's the process of figuring things out and building up a picture. I'm one of those people who don't look at the picture on the front of the box - which is just as well, because Mr Moffatt isn't going to let us have the box - but that's also why I'm avoiding spoilers.

    Thirdly, I don't attach the same significance to authorial intent. That unsatisfying niggle when the jigsaw cannot be completed is no different whether the cause is accidental, deliberate or unknown. I was very curious to know whether the whole River arc was planned by Moffatt when he wrote her in Silence in the Library and Forest of the Dead and I was pleased to find out the answer. But it doesn't in any way affect my enjoyment of the ongoing storyline. Either it's consistent and fits, or it doesn't. If it is a good story and it doesn't contradict what's gone before I don't care if it wasn't originally planned (indeed, I'd prefer it to something that had been planned but executed with less care and attention to detail). For me, all the matters is what ends up on the screen.


  • EugeneEugene September 2011
    Perhaps it's my background, 34 years man and boy as a computer programmer, and I like my puzzles to work out in a precise, functional way in the end.  Anything else is just buggy logic.

    I also think that intent is incredibly important.  If this weren't script writing, if someone intended to sell you a product that was less than advertised that could be considered fraud.  

    While I'm not saying fraud is the appropriate term for an inadequate delivered product of a script/storyline, I certainly draw a distinction between incompetently failing to piece the script together and intentionally not bothering to get it right.  The former is regrettable, the later is an insult to the audience.
  • MrSimonWoodMrSimonWood September 2011
    I do like precision, I'm with you on that. And I don't see any reason why the puzzle shouldn't work out (well, maybe just a niggling doubt after seeing the trailer for The Wedding of River Song). But for me it's not the most important factor, because even if it doesn't work out perfectly, I'll have enjoyed piecing it together, in ignorance. I'd prefer it to work out. I still hope it will.

    I do understand intent matters to some people. Sometimes - for example you see this on a grand scale with Wagner - it arouses huge passion in people. It's just - and this is a personal thing - it's just it doesn't matter to me. I'll view, listen or watch a piece and decide if it's good or bad based on that alone. For me, good intentions don't make a bad work better, just as malign intent wouldn't marr something I liked.
  • BenBen September 2011
    Interesting... "It's just - and this is a personal thing - it's just it doesn't matter to me. I'll view, listen or watch a piece and decide if it's good or bad based on that alone. For me, good intentions don't make a bad work better, just as malign intent wouldn't marr something I liked."

    There are several people I'm acquainted on another podcast who have loved this season of Doctor Who for the very reason you just gave. However, I cannot approach a TV show in that manner. I'm an unashamed, proud nit-picker, especially when the issue of time travel and continuity comes into play. The moment I start to see violations I am forced to stand up and yell "FOUL!!!"

    I've seen too many violations already.

    I won't use the puzzle metaphor, but rather the mystery.

    There is nothing more rewarding than watching a mystery movie and then figuring out who the culprit is! To then compare notes with the detective on the scene to see if you were able to truly come to the same conclusions. Lately, this just hasn't been the case.

    Neil Simon did a movie quite some years ago called "Murder By Death" in which a mystery has been placed in front of the world's greatest detectives. When they are stumped at figuring out who the murderer is they are then scolded (I get the feeling this was Neil's editorial against writers like Agatha Christie) for introducing important characters in the last chapter, or withholding vital evidence until the final few pages of their books.

    This is how I've been feeling watching the current series of Who. I should be able to watch each episode on its own merit, and at the same time, as a long time viewer, be rewarded by seeing how neatly together all the details and pieces fit together. Neither has been the case.
  • MrSimonWoodMrSimonWood September 2011
    Reply to @Ben: Actually, I agree with "I should be able to watch each episode on its own merit, and at the same time, as a long time viewer, be rewarded by seeing how neatly together all the details and pieces fit together." I think that's a bit different from the intent question, and relates to the frequent accusation also levelled at RTD of the Deus ex Machina ending. Often justly.

    But it's rather the balance; if it all ends badly on Saturday I think that will matter less to me than to you and Eugene because although the neatness of fit matters to me, perhaps it's not as much. Also there's the not insignificant fact that unlike you two, I've not had an issue with the story construction so far and really enjoyed all the River episodes!
  • EugeneEugene September 2011
    I'll be so happy if this gets pulled together nicer on Saturday, but I'm afraid it will...  how do they say it? -- "Come a cropper."
  • Emme46Emme46 November 2011
    It's REALLY good episode. It's funny, but I just finished watching 'A Good Man Goes To War '(for the first time, after I've seen 'Let's Kill Hitler', I'll have seen all of the Doctor Who episodes out yet) a couple hours ago.. Lol ;) I loved it when Rory said: "Shut up, Hitler!" & "I'm putting Hitler in the cupboard!" and when Doctor said "No! Gimme someone I like!".. Its an awesome episode and a must watch for everyone.. :)

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